Monday, July 25, 2011
To Serve and To Praise 5
According to this explanation of Rambam, praying to the deceased is a violation of a fundamental principle of Judaism. Are the masses of Jews that flock to the gravesides of the righteous in violation of this principle? Do they have an alternate understanding of Rambam's words? Do they disagree with Rambam? Are they simply unaware of this principle? Or are they doing something other than praying to the deceased?
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Yes, they're not supposed to be praying to the deceased, I think most people know that. If they don't, they're wrong, yes, but I don't think anyone really thinks that.
ReplyDelete“Yes, they're not supposed to be praying to the deceased, I think most people know that. If they don't, they're wrong, yes, but I don't think anyone really thinks that.”
ReplyDeleteSierra Alpha; Was Calev wrong (see sotah 34:), do you really think according to one opinion of the Talmud the sages would mandate we do idolatrous activities (on a day of repentance no less, see ta’anis 16.), and maybe the Jews on their way to exile would simply not be thinking straight as in their despair they cry out to Moses (see ayn ya’kov sotah 14., brought in the Bach in the Vilna Shas there)
סוטה דף לד:
ויעלו בנגב ויבא עד חברון ויבאו מבעי ליה אמר רבא מלמד שפירש כלב מעצת מרגלים והלך ונשתטח על קברי אבות אמר להן אבותי בקשו עלי רחמים שאנצל מעצת מרגלים
תענית טז.
מה יוצאין לבית הקברות פליגי בה ר' לוי בר חמא ור' חנינא חד אמר הרי אנו חשובין לפניך כמתים וחד אמר כדי שיבקשו עלינו מתים רחמים מאי בינייהו איכא בינייהו קברי עכו"ם
עין יעקב סוטה יד.
ואמר ר' חמא בר חנינא מפני מה נסתתר קברו של משה מעיני בשר ודם, מפני שגלוי וידוע לפני הקב"ה שעתיד בית המקדש ליחרב ולהגלות את ישראל מארצם שמא יבאו לקבורתו של משה באותה שעה ויעמדו בבכיה ויתחננו למשה ויאמרו לו משה רבינו עמוד בתפילה בעדנו ועומד משה ומבטל את הגזירה
Avraham: You anticipated my next post. I don't have a very good answer for you, but we are not the only ones who are troubled by these sources.
ReplyDeleteIt doesn't say you aren't allowed to talk to the dead (although it sounds weird to me), but that you can't pray to them.
ReplyDeleteIf you ask them to do something (heal the sick, make you rich, etc.) you're ascribing power to them, which would be completely wrong. If you want to tell them that you're in trouble, and have them daven to Hashem, who is the Only One capable of doing anything, that doesn't sound like the same thing to me.
I mean, right there in each "conversation" with the dead we see the living person acknowledging that the dead are powerless, as all the dead themselves can do is be mivakaish from Hashem.
The point is that the deceased no longer possess free will, and are thus incapable of choosing to daven to Hashem, if they were not doing so already. Requesting them to choose something on their own, an ability that they do not possess, is tantamount to asking a living human for rain, a similarly false ascription of power.
ReplyDeleteI think it's pretty clear the rules are different for some exceptional people (Avos, Imahos, Moshe). To some extent, they aren't necessarily as dead even (Yaakov lo meis). At the very least, the midrash refers to them as acting this way, possibly not literally put allegorically, for a message, etc. These are all midrashim, please bear in mind, and not halachically binding.
ReplyDeleteTo your first point: Why should the rules be any different for exceptional people? Do exceptional people retain their free will after they die?
ReplyDeleteTo your second point: Do you really believe that Yakov is still alive?
To your third point: Labeling a Medrash as allegorical does not mean that it does not have to be dealt with. It was written in order to impart a message, and it is upon us to responsibly decipher that message.